Would this work?

bammiller

Super Anarchist
1,111
16
Imagine, for a moment that you have a 22' wide catamaran with a 14' traveler track. Most traveler's have cleats at either end of the track, so you have to run from one side to the other to cleat or uncleat the traveler.

Does this system eliminate that need?

IMG_3138.JPG

Will this actually work or am I very confused?

Bam Miller

 

sailflat

Super Anarchist
1,084
2
We do something simular... But entirely different. I will take some picts and post them this evening.

 

Presuming Ed

Super Anarchist
11,024
186
London, UK
Can't see why not.

Question, though. Having the leeward traveler adjustment is cleated off is a pain when you're bringin the trav up to windward of the centre line. Not a problem if it's on centre or below.

Never come across a cat that brings the trav up - I thought that generally they had single trav adjustment dead-ended at the centre of the beam (until you get up to ORMA 60 size) . Interesting to hear of one that does. Or is it just that at 20' wide, you must be about 40' long, so are up there where the tensions get too big for the usual beachcat solution. (In which case, are those blocks up to it?).

What's the boat?

 
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T-Yacht

Member
175
0
O2878
It will work except when the leeward side is cleated and you need to dump the traveler. Is windward sheeting a requirement? Most cats use a traveler that can only be pulled to center line, but not beyond. The ones I have seen use a cam cleat off the center of the car or mounted in the center of the rear beam.

-Nathan

 

bammiller

Super Anarchist
1,111
16
Why not use the windward sheeting traveler car?
Because you really need to sit in line with the windward sheeting traveler car and the aft beam on this cat is a couple of feet behind the cockpits. You also have to switch sides to move the traveler from tack to tack.

Also, with this system you dont have a giant pile of traveler line sitting in the cockpit; the line you pull through the cam cleat, goes back out the cam cleat right next to it, or so the theory goes.

Bam Miller

 

bammiller

Super Anarchist
1,111
16
It will work except when the leeward side is cleated and you need to dump the traveler. Is windward sheeting a requirement? Most cats use a traveler that can only be pulled to center line, but not beyond. The ones I have seen use a cam cleat off the center of the car or mounted in the center of the rear beam.

-Nathan
But the leeward side is cleated in 2 places, once on the left (where the line makes a 90degree turn and goes all the way to the opposite side and back the the car, and once on the right side.

It's not that windward sheeting a "must have" but rather the car can be adjusted from either side, in either direction. When you are tacking, it would be nice to pull the car back to centerline without having to run across the trampoline.

The center point travelers are typically used on beach cats; this is for a 38' Derek Kelsal design. The center point system is limited to 2-1 purchase.

Bam Miller

 

bammiller

Super Anarchist
1,111
16
Can't see why not.

Question, though. Having the leeward traveler adjustment is cleated off is a pain when you're bringin the trav up to windward of the centre line. Not a problem if it's on centre or below.

Never come across a cat that brings the trav up - I thought that generally they had single trav adjustment dead-ended at the centre of the beam (until you get up to ORMA 60 size) . Interesting to hear of one that does. Or is it just that at 20' wide, you must be about 40' long, so are up there where the tensions get too big for the usual beachcat solution. (In which case, are those blocks up to it?).

What's the boat?
Early 80's Derek Kelsal design; 37'LOA, 22' BEAM, former Spirit of Hudson Valley.

We typically would bring the car above centerline on light air days to get a little twist happening. The boat just moved from WLIS to Lake Champlain. I dont think the loads will be too extreme; the 2-1 double ended mainsheet uses 32st's.

Bam Miller

 

Bump-n-Grind

Get off my lawn.
14,696
3,498
Chesapeake Bay/Vail
Imagine, for a moment that you have a 22' wide catamaran with a 14' traveler track. Most traveler's have cleats at either end of the track, so you have to run from one side to the other to cleat or uncleat the traveler.

Does this system eliminate that need?

View attachment 139933

Will this actually work or am I very confused?

Bam Miller
I dunno about you but I'm totally confused... I've used the windward sheeting trav cars on leadmines from 24 to 35'.. I think they make a smaller version that would probably work for your boat. Not sure if it's a better solution or not, but would be less confusing to me.

 

mezaire

Super Anarchist
1,226
29
Tasmania
I am pretty sure this would work well. Basically it works as a normal traveller except one end is tied off by the leeward cleat on each tack. My only concers would be that the loads would be too great for a 4:1 system. The 32ft keel boat I race on has 4:1 and it gets pretty hard to hold for long periods in anything over 20knots. Assuming car load is 0.2 of mainsheet load and without the formula in front of me, I would be guessing the mainsheet load could easily get to 1000kg, meaning 200kg on the traveller or 50kg at 4:1. 50kg is pretty hard to pull with one hand while sitting down.

I had thought up something similar for a Sportsboat but not making it a single line. My idea was to have two cleats facing towards each side of the boat, eliminating the need to go move weight around to release the other side of the traveller.

Mez

 

Slowboat

Super Anarchist
Can't see why not.

Question, though. Having the leeward traveler adjustment is cleated off is a pain when you're bringin the trav up to windward of the centre line. Not a problem if it's on centre or below.

Never come across a cat that brings the trav up - I thought that generally they had single trav adjustment dead-ended at the centre of the beam (until you get up to ORMA 60 size) . Interesting to hear of one that does. Or is it just that at 20' wide, you must be about 40' long, so are up there where the tensions get too big for the usual beachcat solution. (In which case, are those blocks up to it?).

What's the boat?
Early 80's Derek Kelsal design; 37'LOA, 22' BEAM, former Spirit of Hudson Valley.

We typically would bring the car above centerline on light air days to get a little twist happening. The boat just moved from WLIS to Lake Champlain. I dont think the loads will be too extreme; the 2-1 double ended mainsheet uses 32st's.

Bam Miller

I was wondering what that boat was...is it now named "Angus"? If so, let the owner know that I'm charging for the time on my mooring this spring...$1ft per day X 1 per beam ft.
laugh.gif


 
Why not use the windward sheeting traveler car?
Because you really need to sit in line with the windward sheeting traveler car and the aft beam on this cat is a couple of feet behind the cockpits. You also have to switch sides to move the traveler from tack to tack.

Also, with this system you dont have a giant pile of traveler line sitting in the cockpit; the line you pull through the cam cleat, goes back out the cam cleat right next to it, or so the theory goes.

Bam Miller
I think there is probably a better solution; I love creative stuff like this.

I don't like this design because of the multiple turns, twists & runs, probably much more efficient to keep all the traveler sheets in line. I know they are expensive (around $350 for your size boat) but why not use the windward sheeting car with 2 spring mounted turning blocks to give you the lead you want? Thats what I'd do. If I had the money.

 
Can't see why not.

Question, though. Having the leeward traveler adjustment is cleated off is a pain when you're bringin the trav up to windward of the centre line. Not a problem if it's on centre or below.

Never come across a cat that brings the trav up - I thought that generally they had single trav adjustment dead-ended at the centre of the beam (until you get up to ORMA 60 size) . Interesting to hear of one that does. Or is it just that at 20' wide, you must be about 40' long, so are up there where the tensions get too big for the usual beachcat solution. (In which case, are those blocks up to it?).

What's the boat?
Early 80's Derek Kelsal design; 37'LOA, 22' BEAM, former Spirit of Hudson Valley.

We typically would bring the car above centerline on light air days to get a little twist happening. The boat just moved from WLIS to Lake Champlain. I dont think the loads will be too extreme; the 2-1 double ended mainsheet uses 32st's.

Bam Miller

I was wondering what that boat was...is it now named "Angus"? If so, let the owner know that I'm charging for the time on my mooring this spring...$1ft per day X 1 per beam ft.
laugh.gif
The good news is I was going to paint our name and number on your morning that afternoon. How did you find out we named her Angus already? New sure travels fast around here.

I am looking forward to meeting you. I have been told that we are the two youngest people in the club.

Dan

 
I am pretty sure this would work well. Basically it works as a normal traveller except one end is tied off by the leeward cleat on each tack. My only concers would be that the loads would be too great for a 4:1 system. The 32ft keel boat I race on has 4:1 and it gets pretty hard to hold for long periods in anything over 20knots. Assuming car load is 0.2 of mainsheet load and without the formula in front of me, I would be guessing the mainsheet load could easily get to 1000kg, meaning 200kg on the traveller or 50kg at 4:1. 50kg is pretty hard to pull with one hand while sitting down.

I had thought up something similar for a Sportsboat but not making it a single line. My idea was to have two cleats facing towards each side of the boat, eliminating the need to go move weight around to release the other side of the traveller.

Mez

As far as loading goes the main is 411 ft.² the Genoa is 315 ft.² the boat ways 3300 pounds is 22 feet wide and 37 feet long.

Dan

 
Can't see why not.

Question, though. Having the leeward traveler adjustment is cleated off is a pain when you're bringin the trav up to windward of the centre line. Not a problem if it's on centre or below.

Never come across a cat that brings the trav up - I thought that generally they had single trav adjustment dead-ended at the centre of the beam (until you get up to ORMA 60 size) . Interesting to hear of one that does. Or is it just that at 20' wide, you must be about 40' long, so are up there where the tensions get too big for the usual beachcat solution. (In which case, are those blocks up to it?).

What's the boat?
Early 80's Derek Kelsal design; 37'LOA, 22' BEAM, former Spirit of Hudson Valley.

We typically would bring the car above centerline on light air days to get a little twist happening. The boat just moved from WLIS to Lake Champlain. I dont think the loads will be too extreme; the 2-1 double ended mainsheet uses 32st's.

Bam Miller

I was wondering what that boat was...is it now named "Angus"? If so, let the owner know that I'm charging for the time on my mooring this spring...$1ft per day X 1 per beam ft.
laugh.gif
The good news is I was going to paint our name and number on your morning that afternoon. How did you find out we named her Angus already? New sure travels fast around here.

I am looking forward to meeting you. I have been told that we are the two youngest people in the club.

Dan

Actually, Darling.... I'm younger than you.

 

DoRag

Super Anarchist
Can't see why not.

Question, though. Having the leeward traveler adjustment is cleated off is a pain when you're bringin the trav up to windward of the centre line. Not a problem if it's on centre or below.

Never come across a cat that brings the trav up - I thought that generally they had single trav adjustment dead-ended at the centre of the beam (until you get up to ORMA 60 size) . Interesting to hear of one that does. Or is it just that at 20' wide, you must be about 40' long, so are up there where the tensions get too big for the usual beachcat solution. (In which case, are those blocks up to it?).

What's the boat?
Early 80's Derek Kelsal design; 37'LOA, 22' BEAM, former Spirit of Hudson Valley.

We typically would bring the car above centerline on light air days to get a little twist happening. The boat just moved from WLIS to Lake Champlain. I dont think the loads will be too extreme; the 2-1 double ended mainsheet uses 32st's.

Bam Miller

I was wondering what that boat was...is it now named "Angus"? If so, let the owner know that I'm charging for the time on my mooring this spring...$1ft per day X 1 per beam ft.
laugh.gif
The good news is I was going to paint our name and number on your morning that afternoon. How did you find out we named her Angus already? New sure travels fast around here.

I am looking forward to meeting you. I have been told that we are the two youngest people in the club.

Dan

Actually, Darling.... I'm younger than you.
Hey, you have any pics you'd care to share with the boyz?

 

mrgnstrn

Super Anarchist
1,375
4
Herring Bay, MD
Imagine, for a moment that you have a 22' wide catamaran with a 14' traveler track. Most traveler's have cleats at either end of the track, so you have to run from one side to the other to cleat or uncleat the traveler.

Does this system eliminate that need?

View attachment 139933

Will this actually work or am I very confused?

Bam Miller
I can only see 2 flaws, both of which may be managable.

1. loop management: You may find that the "loop" that you have on the port side gets very small,and perhaps unusable because it's all migrated to the starboard side. So now the question becomes, can you re-distribute the loops to be even length on each side while the system is under load. Easy when there is no load, but under extremis, will you find that you need too many hands?

2. the end-to-end splice: it will be under load always (or should be assumed to be). May be OK, depending on line choice. Also, that splice will eventually end up at the cleat: is that OK? And the splice will likely be bulkier than the rest, is that OK?

like I said, both are possibly manageble, but worth a few moments cogitation.

-M

 

bammiller

Super Anarchist
1,111
16
Why not use the windward sheeting traveler car?
Because you really need to sit in line with the windward sheeting traveler car and the aft beam on this cat is a couple of feet behind the cockpits. You also have to switch sides to move the traveler from tack to tack.

Also, with this system you dont have a giant pile of traveler line sitting in the cockpit; the line you pull through the cam cleat, goes back out the cam cleat right next to it, or so the theory goes.

Bam Miller
I think there is probably a better solution; I love creative stuff like this.

I don't like this design because of the multiple turns, twists & runs, probably much more efficient to keep all the traveler sheets in line. I know they are expensive (around $350 for your size boat) but why not use the windward sheeting car with 2 spring mounted turning blocks to give you the lead you want? Thats what I'd do. If I had the money.
The other problem is the mainsheet uses a system like this:

2010-07-01_1326.png

Which doesn't work with a windward sheeting car because of the horizontal pull of the mainsheet.

Essentially, what I have done is to use the cam cleats as dead ends; instead of dead ending at the end control, I just redirect it through 2 cheek blocks and then to the cleat. It doesn't actually travel on the cheek blocks under load; it just sits there statically, until you adjust the other end, where there wont be any load on it.

The other problem with a windward sheeting car is that you have to, at some point, get inline with the car to un-cleat it to lower the traveler; something that typically needs to happen urgently.

Im still hunting for a better idea for a really wide traveler system that uses block and tackle instead of winches.

Bam Miller

 

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