your opinion on race trackers in real time ie Yellow Brick?

[silent bob]

Ok, I'll bite. How many times have the tracking transmitters you have used, ended up at the bottom of a sail stack in the bilge?

Hanging tissue over the stern lamp?  Always thought this was bullshit.  If you’re going to cheat, just turn it off!

Do you think Lewis Hamilton looks into his rear view mirror to see what Kubica is doing?

 

[JoeO]

Perhaps one way to achieve the safety component of trackers while eliminating them as a tactical tool would be to have the trackers only display positions of boats without their identifying information or course/speed. This information would be "masked" unless you had the password for "full  coverage" (available to the RC and CG only, for example). So the organizing authorities and CG would be able to identify individual competitors, but everyone else would just see anonymous boat positions (which could be delayed n hrs). In the event that a particular boat was in distress, then the RC/CG could "turn on" that boat's identifying information so that nearby competitors could determine (by knowing their own position via GPS) if they were in a position to assist.

At the end of the event, the tracker would then show all identifying info, for historical analysis/interest.

 

[solosailor]

Ok, I'll bite. How many times have the tracking transmitters you have used, ended up at the bottom of a sail stack in the bilge?

None....   ours simply died on the rail.

 

[IMR]

Perhaps one way to achieve the safety component of trackers while eliminating them as a tactical tool would be to have the trackers only display positions of boats without their identifying information or course/speed. This information would be "masked" unless you had the password for "full  coverage" (available to the RC and CG only, for example). So the organizing authorities and CG would be able to identify individual competitors, but everyone else would just see anonymous boat positions (which could be delayed n hrs). In the event that a particular boat was in distress, then the RC/CG could "turn on" that boat's identifying information so that nearby competitors could determine (by knowing their own position via GPS) if they were in a position to assist.

At the end of the event, the tracker would then show all identifying info, for historical analysis/interest.

When you are offshore all you get is the Lat lon and a boat ID.   When you use expedition it then calculates the  SOG and COG from the last report you downloaded, if you removed the Boat ID's it would only take a one position report from the RC to ID the boats from an 8 am location.   

 

[fan]

Hanging tissue over the stern lamp?  Always thought this was bullshit.  If you’re going to cheat, just turn it off!

Do you think Lewis Hamilton looks into his rear view mirror to see what Kubica is doing?

Started racing on a new boat in town.  Going through the systems and found the previous owner had installed a rheostat on the Nav lights.  Tissue paper is old school

 

[10thTonner]

Tracking and technology is the way of the future. Like it or not, this will become more and more prevalent in racing. Encouraging boats to hide themselves in any capacity is unwise from a safety perspective. While I fully get the not wanting your opponent to see you sail into a hole, or hit a streak of favorable weather/current whatever, it is not here for much longer. Soon, money will be the factor in terms of who has the best tracking tech, so why not nip it in the bud before that comes to fruition? 

Safety offshore is a priority that cannot be put anywhere other than first on the list of importance. I think far too many people in the sailing world live a life where they're never had a real emergency and therefore are way, way out of touch with how little it takes to have a life threatening emergency, being offshore with no one knowing where you are can only make the situation more difficult. 

^ this.

 

[fan]

^ this.

I guess what everybody is missing is the tracker can be used by race committee, Coast Guard whomever needs it live for safety but there is no reason to have it live to competitors. When someone is in distress you get their lat/long in the mayday.  If there is some kind of event during a race that leads to it being necessary the RC can make that call and send the tracker live.

"I think far too many people in the sailing world live a life where they're never had a real emergency and therefore are way, way out of touch with the fact that they are using the VHF to report the emergency and give position not an e-mail and the fucking tracker." //fixed it for ya

 

[JoeO]

When you are offshore all you get is the Lat lon and a boat ID.   When you use expedition it then calculates the  SOG and COG from the last report you downloaded, if you removed the Boat ID's it would only take a one position report from the RC to ID the boats from an 8 am location.   

The trackers used for e.g., Mackinac races display Boat ID, SOG, COG, DTF and handicap placement (class and division).

 

[us7070]

the tracker should be delayed

the main reason is that it provides a relative advantage to boats that are further back on the course

another issue, that is perhaps underappreciated is that for those in the race.., say the navigator.., there is just too much valuable information - about all kinds of things; even slight differences in wind speed and direction across the course can be identified. if it is real time.., and updated frequently.., you can never leave the computer! I can't even go to sleep without worrying that i am missing something

AIS is worse than the tracker...

 

[us7070]

The trackers used for e.g., Mackinac races display Boat ID, SOG, COG, DTF and handicap placement (class and division).

maybe - i've never done one of those races.., but i think that if you look at the actual text file, that other stuff is not there

YB usually tries to keep the files as small as possible

that's the way it has been in pretty much all the YB races i have done

 

[LionessRacing]

Having a race where a boat taking a flyer can successfully elude it's competitors may be a reason to limit the information beyond line of sight. Essentially AIS extends that to 25 miles or so, and tracker gives "gods eye" view.

Knowing the weather more than 25 miles away is not likely to be a big deal for anyone in the same class, unless you are doing really poorl

 

[no shoes]

another issue, that is perhaps underappreciated is that for those in the race.., say the navigator.., there is just too much valuable information - about all kinds of things; even slight differences in wind speed and direction across the course can be identified. if it is real time.., and updated frequently.., you can never leave the computer! I can't even go to sleep without worrying that i am missing something

AIS is worse than the tracker...

Takes a lot of the fun out of it. If this is the way we are going, there will have to be two navigators. Great....Sounds fun, sitting at the navigation station all the time, not navigating, just following along, playing "who has the pressure?"

I still say, there is no reason competitors should have access to even 4 hour delay. So what is the consensus of the group? Real time? 4 hour delay? No access to competitors?

 

[mad]

Takes a lot of the fun out of it. If this is the way we are going, there will have to be two navigators. Great....Sounds fun, sitting at the navigation station all the time, not navigating, just following along, playing "who has the pressure?"

I still say, there is no reason competitors should have access to even 4 hour delay. So what is the consensus of the group? Real time? 4 hour delay? No access to competitors?

Sounds like playing Virtual Regatta 

 

[glexpress]

Zero delay please.

Penalties for not transmitting for whatever reason.

If you're referring to YellowBrick I would say that's unreasonable.  I've been on boats that stopped transmitting without explanation during a race, with the YellowBrick device secured to the stern pulpit with a clear view of the sky.  They just fail sometimes.

 

[us7070]

I've been on boats that stopped transmitting without explanation

pretty sure YB is Iridium - it's an Iridium phone, without a good external antenna...

Iridium is pretty good, but even in installations with a good external antenna, there can be periods of time where a sat connection can not be established.

it's worth noting that the YB uses the Iridium SMS (text message) protocol - so 160 characters, and i don't think that Iridium can "rebuild" SMS messages with more characters.., as some cell networks can. 

SMS on Iridium does not need as good a satellite connection as does a voice or data call.., but still there are times when  constellation geometry, or other factors, mean that even SMS will not go through.

 

[C. Spackler]

What's wrong with tracking competitors who are over the horizon? More information makes the racing more interesting.   

Sometimes they are within visual, but more often you need binoculars, or stabilized infrared binoculars, maybe AIS or radar. Some boats only use the NOAA forecast before they leave, others use fancy tracking software.   Whatever.  

Current YB data levels the playing field and make it more interesting, but you still have to sail the air you're in.

 

[Robin]

For years I was old school and did not like the concept of full information being available (I have fallen victim of rheostats in the past or no running lights before it was a racing rule) .  Today I feel differently.  Now that the technology and reliability are up to it I vote for full time, real time, availability.  I believe that the requiring AIS both receiving and sending is in the long term best interest of offshore sailing.  Like all information its value lies in the good or bad decisions you make as a result of this single input.

Robin