Zim Fj's and the front page!

SockeyeUS119

Super Anarchist
I just read an article on the front page. I know.. it is remarkable.

The upshot is that the University of Michigan Sailing team has just raised half of $200,000 for 12 new Zim FJ's.

hold on a minute- i have to go back an d look to be sure i have the facts right.

OK, they raised $100,000 for capital investment, and bought 12 FJ's. I guess maybe they didn't spend it all on the fj's. WE just bought * new Zim FJ's for our hs team for 54K . Immediately after putting the new boats on the dock the best sailors knew the new boats were slower. and the techscore boat rank page confirms that across all teams and sailors and conditions the new boats are slower. The old boats are over 12 years but the sails are only a few years old.

How is it possible to make a new boat slower than an old boat? the condition of the centerboard gasket alone should make them faster.

 
dumb question but you have to start at the beginning... did you check mast rake and mast but positions? Being in the same hole is not good enough, butt plates can be in different spots and shrouds can be different lengths (hopefully the same on each boat though!). are they all using the same sails?

Also, filled rails vs not? Normally in college they're all the same so everyone goes equally slow.

 
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SockeyeUS119

Super Anarchist
I would presume that some one set up the boats when new to match the experience in the old ones. the coach and volunteers are very experienced dinghy sailors and sellers. i can check on those items but be aware that the coach tells them that if they don't check over the boat to be sure it is tuned the way they want then they are just getting in a used boat. Only the top few really do this but it is done. filled rails? what is that?

 
That's what I mean. In club sailing you do a lot to check your boat, because it's your boat (assigned or owned) so you have more of a commitment and you are given or make the time. In college, the pins are set and you roll with it. If whoever set the pins only counted the holes the potential exists that there is a difference between the boats/mfgs that needs to be neutralized. You don't have time to get out there with a loos gauge and a tape measure to make sure things are even. Ok maybe you don't need a loos for this but you know what I mean.

boats made for college sailing will sometimes fill the rails all the way around so they stand up to a collision better. It obviously adds a lot of weight, though.

 
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sunseeker

Super Anarchist
3,581
544
If you are worried about a boat being slow in college you have your priorities wrong.

One word, and it's not plastic.

Pussy.

 

Bruno

Super Anarchist
3,958
136
A UMich is a tech school, some clever guys from there over the years

B reference to time series data and correlation, guessing someone did some statistical analysis, usually involves that shit I didnt get but know matters

C other variables: sails, foils, weight & other parameters specified in contract, etc.,

So, charitably, lets ass-u-me the article or studies authors are somewhat meeting the above notes, therefore it is not just noise.

Filled rails, what with, foam, syntactic or not? Delta is what 10lbs? A fat crew is more than that.

What pther factors? Well resin and reinforcemnt quality, quantities, and placement matter

Mold fairness and accuracy matter, shape!

Rig, stiffness, stretch, design/layout

Blades

And then weight

 

poopie pants

Super Anarchist
5,478
2
the Bu
I just read an article on the front page. I know.. it is remarkable.

The upshot is that the University of Michigan Sailing team has just raised half of $200,000 for 12 new Zim FJ's.

hold on a minute- i have to go back an d look to be sure i have the facts right.

OK, they raised $100,000 for capital investment, and bought 12 FJ's. I guess maybe they didn't spend it all on the fj's. WE just bought * new Zim FJ's for our hs team for 54K . Immediately after putting the new boats on the dock the best sailors knew the new boats were slower. and the techscore boat rank page confirms that across all teams and sailors and conditions the new boats are slower. The old boats are over 12 years but the sails are only a few years old.

How is it possible to make a new boat slower than an old boat? the condition of the centerboard gasket alone should make them faster.

Which manufacturer do you work for?

 

Rum Runner

Rum Runner
5,300
309
Illinois
I just read an article on the front page. I know.. it is remarkable.

The upshot is that the University of Michigan Sailing team has just raised half of $200,000 for 12 new Zim FJ's.

hold on a minute- i have to go back an d look to be sure i have the facts right.

OK, they raised $100,000 for capital investment, and bought 12 FJ's. I guess maybe they didn't spend it all on the fj's. WE just bought * new Zim FJ's for our hs team for 54K . Immediately after putting the new boats on the dock the best sailors knew the new boats were slower. and the techscore boat rank page confirms that across all teams and sailors and conditions the new boats are slower. The old boats are over 12 years but the sails are only a few years old.

How is it possible to make a new boat slower than an old boat? the condition of the centerboard gasket alone should make them faster.
It only matters if you are racing the new boats against the old ones. Since the old ones were either sold or trashed it should not matter. Maybe you wanted to sell them a different manufacturer's boats.

 

ScowLover

Anarchist
772
52
Wisconsin
It has been WAY too long since I was in college and raced at Michigan. With that said, I recall their "old, crappy boats" were REALLY fast. OSU had the same thing going on. The worst looking boats were quick. How can it be different? Filled rails were mentioned. Beyond that, the new boats are probably heavier before the filled rails. If you told me you weighed old and new at Michigan, it wouldn't surprise me if you told me one or two of the old boats were 50 pounds lighter than the new boats. The old boats were that fast compared to "new boats" when I was in school. Unfortunately, Midwest college sailing was and probably still is riddled with varied equipment. Rotations help, but they can't help if you draw the "slow boat" when it matters at the end of an event. I wouldn't blast Zim over this. I'm sure they were contracted to build boats that were ready for college abuse. I'm sure they delivered. The goal wasn't, nor should it have been, to be faster than the old boats.

 

House Salad

Anarchist
931
5
WLIS
It has been WAY too long since I was in college and raced at Michigan. With that said, I recall their "old, crappy boats" were REALLY fast. OSU had the same thing going on. The worst looking boats were quick. How can it be different? Filled rails were mentioned. Beyond that, the new boats are probably heavier before the filled rails. If you told me you weighed old and new at Michigan, it wouldn't surprise me if you told me one or two of the old boats were 50 pounds lighter than the new boats. The old boats were that fast compared to "new boats" when I was in school. Unfortunately, Midwest college sailing was and probably still is riddled with varied equipment. Rotations help, but they can't help if you draw the "slow boat" when it matters at the end of an event. I wouldn't blast Zim over this. I'm sure they were contracted to build boats that were ready for college abuse. I'm sure they delivered. The goal wasn't, nor should it have been, to be faster than the old boats.
Maybe because the "old" boats were 470's. It wasn't that long ago that they sailed 470's there. When were you sailing there?

 

Lake Shark

Member
324
0
midwest
the old boats they were replacing were 420s which anyone who actually read the article instead of starting a thread to bash a manufacturer would catch.

FJs also have about 10 sq feet less sail area then a 420

About your HS program. Did you replace club FJs with Collegiate FJs? Zim lists a 10 pound hull weight difference on their site between the two hulls.

 
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House Salad

Anarchist
931
5
WLIS
the old boats they were replacing were 420s which anyone who actually read the article instead of starting a thread to bash a manufacturer would catch.

FJs also have about 10 sq feet less sail area then a 420
I didn't get the feeling that anyone was bashing a manufacturer. Yes, a 420 is a faster boat than an FJ and would certainly explain the difference that scowlover was talking about. But I don't recall 420's on Baseline Lake, though I could be wrong. I thought they replaced the 470's I sailed in the early 80's with more 470's, but I could be wrong there too. In any case I don't think there is anything wrong with their brand new FJ's.

 

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
46,272
4,413
Not here
The team member I spoke to was very happy about the quality of the new boats, in case that matters to anyone.

I just read an article on the front page. I know.. it is remarkable.

The upshot is that the University of Michigan Sailing team has just raised half of $200,000 for 12 new Zim FJ's.

hold on a minute- i have to go back an d look to be sure i have the facts right.

OK, they raised $100,000 for capital investment, and bought 12 FJ's. I guess maybe they didn't spend it all on the fj's. WE just bought * new Zim FJ's for our hs team for 54K . Immediately after putting the new boats on the dock the best sailors knew the new boats were slower. and the techscore boat rank page confirms that across all teams and sailors and conditions the new boats are slower. The old boats are over 12 years but the sails are only a few years old.

How is it possible to make a new boat slower than an old boat? the condition of the centerboard gasket alone should make them faster.
 

Bad Andy

Anarchist
988
55
Chicago
My college did the same thing and the old boats were faster as well. But they were 40 pounds lighter and constantly getting holed. New ones were rock solid and bullet proof.

 

SockeyeUS119

Super Anarchist
No, I wasn't bashing anyone. it was kinda interesting to hear the kids mention the new boats were slow then see the evidence on the techscore boat data page. Techscore is the collegiate, navy and HS scoring web site that also develops rotations and tracks participation. it has a page that ranks the boats by sail number. If you were betting on a boat to win when a good team got in it this has all the places any boat got during a scored regatta.

between the rails and club v. collegiate hulls could be the diff. thanks

 

SockeyeUS119

Super Anarchist
I just read an article on the front page. I know.. it is remarkable.

The upshot is that the University of Michigan Sailing team has just raised half of $200,000 for 12 new Zim FJ's.

hold on a minute- i have to go back an d look to be sure i have the facts right.

OK, they raised $100,000 for capital investment, and bought 12 FJ's. I guess maybe they didn't spend it all on the fj's. WE just bought * new Zim FJ's for our hs team for 54K . Immediately after putting the new boats on the dock the best sailors knew the new boats were slower. and the techscore boat rank page confirms that across all teams and sailors and conditions the new boats are slower. The old boats are over 12 years but the sails are only a few years old.

How is it possible to make a new boat slower than an old boat? the condition of the centerboard gasket alone should make them faster.

Which manufacturer do you work for?
ME? really? I am a fucking carpenter with a daughter with a jones for sailing.

 

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